Showing posts with label Pine Falls. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Pine Falls. Show all posts

Tuesday, February 02, 2010


CANADIAN LABOUR-MANITOBA:
WHO (IF ANYONE) WILL OWN THE PINE FALLS PLANT ?:
Since the announcement of Tembec's intention to sell their paper plant in Pine Falls Manitoba an initial three groups "interested" in the purchase has dwindled to two. One, as previously reported here at Molly's Blog, is an ex-manager who has spun his managerial power through various other corporate entities to the point where he feels that he can raise enough of other people's money to make a bid on his old workplace. Sorta like an upstart bourgeois in 18th century England purchasing a landed title. Mr J.P. Bradette, the potential purchaser in question, has offered to give employees an "equity share". My spider sense starts tingling at this. First question-how many employees ? Mr. Bradette has stated very bluntly that he intends a large number of permanent layoffs (one of the reasons why the present workers are not keen on his plan). Seems more like an attempt to divide the workforce and undercut worker opposition to his proposal than a serious offer.
One also has to ask how much such equity shares would amount to, both in terms of magnitude, in terms of type of share and in terms of relative percentage of the total shares in the company. Anyone with as long a corporate managerial career as Mr. Bradette is, of course, very familiar with how managers often go against the interests of their shareholders. The reason he feels comfortable in this offer, besides the fact that he hopes to pull the teeth of his competitors for the mill, is that he is well assured that any such equity will be both a minor component of the total equity and potential profit and also leave the workers, should they accept such an offer with no control over the future direction of the plant-which might be important if the way od making such a profit involves either selloffs to others or actually making a profit by declaring bankruptcy. It's been done before.
The other proposal on the table, a joint buyout on the part of the workers involved and the nearby Sagkeeng First Nation. This is much more to Molly's liking. An actual producers' co-op seems an impossibility at this time, and this proposal would be optimum in that it would leave control in the hands of local people who would obviously want the mill to stay. I would suggest that the local municipality should also consider joining this partnership. On the part of the First Nation it would be obvious that they should demand preference in future hirings, There should, however, be no layoffs that the other partner to the deal, the present workers, would have to suffer. I would also hope that only a realistic proportion of the $1 million that the Province has promised to the community for the "transition" will be spent on any "feasibility study" ie one that somebody's friends or those that the government of the Province hopes to make their friends will latch onto like leeches. Sorry to say it, but it's my humble opinion that the "consulting" industry is, in the vast majority of cases, smoke mirrors and pickpocketing.
I would also hope that proper legal guarantees be put in place so that there could be no future selloff of the plant, like what happened in the 1990s when it ceased to be worker owned, for temporarily attractive terms. The mill may, indeed, have to be sold in the future no matter who owns it, but this should be only when it is plain that there is no chance of it being self-supporting. For now I would also suggest that the asking price might be diminished by pointing out that any attempt remove portable assets might run into difficulties. No advocacy of anything, of course, aside from the possibility that public peaceful protest might occur in such an eventuality. It should also be made plain, probably by the municipality, that the buildings would not be allowed to sit derelict and rusting away forever. It is within the mandate of a municipality to access penalties and even expropriate any derelict property in their jurisdiction. I'd suggest that such a plain pointing out of the facts might reduce the desire of Tembec's present management to try and charge an inflated price to whomever may buy the plant.
But enough of my own opinions. Here's the story of how things stand today from the Lac Du Bonnet Leader, a local area newspaper.
MLMLMLMLMLMLML
Battle for mill begins
Posted By Marc Zienkiewicz
A battle for ownership of the Tembec paper mill in Powerview-Pine Falls has begun, the Leader learned this week.

Cam Sokoloski, president of United Steelworkers (USW) Local 3-1375 which represents over 250 mill employees, said the union submitted a letter of intent to Tembec this week notifying the company of the union's employee buyout proposal.

The union, in partnership with Sagkeeng First Nation, is also submitting a proposal to the town's Community Development Committee in an attempt to conduct a feasibility study that's intended the bring the buyout to fruition.

"We're going ahead with it — we think this is best option for all involved," Sokoloski said.
Mike Fontaine, economic development officer for the First Nation, said he's excited at the prospect of the mill being community-owned like it was in the 1990s when the first employee buyout took place, prior to the mill being sold to Tembec.

"Sagkeeng is a part of this community and this could be beneficial to everyone," Fontaine said. "We were asked awhile back if we would be willing to explore this and we jumped at it and said absolutely."

Tembec recently put the mill up for sale. It has set a deadline for Feb. 1 for serious purchase offers, with the end of March being its final sale deadline.

If the mill isn't sold by then, the plant will be mothballed, Tembec has said. (Ah, as I said above, "derelict property"-Molly )

John Valley, Tembec's executive vice president of business development and corporate affairs, said the company will only be considering offers that have "real potential" to lead to an eventual takeover.

He did not elaborate as to the criteria the company is using to determine that potential, except to say time is of the essence and anyone putting an offer forward must consider that.
"If someone were to come along and say 'by golly, I want to buy the mill but I still have to get my advisers together and I have no money yet,' obviously we'd have to look at that very carefully," Valley said.

Sokoloski said if the feasibility study goes ahead, the funding for it will come out of the $1million fund recently set up by the provincial government to help the community deal with the aftermath of the recent Tembec labour dispute, which saw nearly 300 mill employees locked out by the company Sept. 1 of last year.

The lockout officially ended Jan. 13 after the Manitoba Labour board intervened. However, the workers are still out of a job and are now attempting to apply for retroactive Employment Insurance benefits.
Bradette's plan a go
As the union prepares its buyout proposal, former Tembec Vice President of Sales J.P. Bradette is also going ahead with his own purchase plan, Bradette told the Leader this week.

"In addition to offering employees a significant ownership stake in the new company, this proposal will create roughly 180 well-paid union jobs and some 20 staff positions, not to mention the benefits to the community as a whole," Bradette said in a statement written for the Leader.

"The reality at this point is that the employees will have no jobs, no wages, no benefits, and certainly no ownership in the mill, unless a viable offer can be made to Tembec by Feb. 1."

Bradette recently came to Powerview-Pine Falls to meet with the community's chamber of commerce and the union membership as well. His plan, of which no details have been made publicly available, was overwhelmingly rejected by the union membership last weekend, Sokoloski said.

Bradette said he's disappointed the union did not accept his offer.

"My understanding is that the issue was not even put to a vote; a decision as important as this one should be put to a secret ballot," he said in his statement. "I understand that my proposal may not fit with every union member's beliefs. To them I say that your support does not obligate you to accept the equity share and the well-paid jobs that will be created. Out of concern and respect for your colleagues and neighbours however, give them a choice."

Sokoloski recently told the Leader that Bradette's offer was "worse" than the Tembec concessions that led to the original lockout last year.

Bradette said support from the union is key to making his plan a success.

"The support of the employees is only the first of many steps required before the mill can be restarted. Without this support there can be no viable offer, and my concern is that the mill assets will be sold off to cover the shutdown costs, with no hope of a restart," Bradette said.

"I urge all employees and members of the community to think long and hard before ratifying such an important decision. There is still time to act, although the window is closing quickly."

Sunday, January 24, 2010


CANADIAN LABOUR-MANITOBA:
WORKERS DISPLEASED WITH PINE FALLS MILL PURCHASE OFFER:
Since the provincial government ruled that the present lockout at the Tembec plant in Pine Falls Manitoba should end and become a "layoff" (see earlier here at Molly's Blog) there have been various offers and suggestions as to how to save the mill. The most prominent has been from a former managerial employee who has managed to leverage his various managerial positions and perks with various companies into real liquid wealth. He, of course, demands at least as many concessions from the workers as Tembec has done.
The other contenders include the Sagkeeng First Nation, the town of Pine Falls and the Tembec employees themselves. The provincial government has committed over a million dollars to "study" the future of the mill (ie throwing/wasting good money at its managerial friends with no expected result). In the end, if there is to be an alternative to the most prominent item on the table it would pretty well have to be a multi-stakeholder partnership including Sagkeeng, Pine Falls, the employees and, yes, the provincial government (such a partnership would be a better place to park money than "studying" the feasibility. Whether such a thing is feasible should be the judgement of one properly qualified government employee working for 2 to 3 weeks (at government speed, less out in the real world) and costing nothing extra because they would simply be diverted from other duties. The proportions of who owns what and who takes on what liabilities would be the main subject of negotiations.
In better times the mill could have easily been purchased by the workers and run as a producers' coop. In actual fact it was once exactly that before it was sold to Tembec in a moment of greed and lack of foresight. The best mixture, in my opinion, for such enterprises is a mixed partnership between a local community and a workers' cooperative. Given the present situation other players, such as private equity and the province will pretty well inevitably have to be signed on if the mill is to viable at all. Once more I emphasize that conversion to producers' coops is best done at times that lack crisis, and that such conversion should be part of the policy of pretty well every union (yes-including the public service one ala the anarchosyndicalists in Spain).
Until that great utopia of foresight...here's the continuing story of the Pine Falls plant from the pages of the Lac Du Bonnet Leader.
MMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Union not impressed with mill offer
Posted By Marc Zienkiewicz
The president of United Steelworkers Local 3-1375 says an offer put forward last week to buy the Tembec paper mill in Powerview-Pine Falls is "worse" than the original concessions that led to the recent employee lockout at the mill.

Cam Sokoloski said J.P. Bradette's offer, put forward at a closed-door meeting Jan. 13, was nothing to get excited about.

"It's worse than what Tembec's offer was," Sokoloski said. "We're still looking at the numbers, nothing's been decided yet. We have a ways to go yet."

Tembec's original concessions included a 35 per cent cut to the union compensation package, including an immediate 25 per cent wage reduction.

Bradette is a former Tembec VP of sales. He currently serves as "principal" for Toronto consulting firm BSC Communications. Prior to his term with Tembec, he served as VP of sales for Ontario Power Generation for four years.

Sokoloski would not give specifics on Bradette's offer, first reported in last week's Leader, but said the union is keeping all its options open. It's working jointly with Sagkeeng First Nation on a feasibility study to see if the mill could become community-owned.

In the meantime, less than half of the mill's 275 workers are still walking the picket line. The lockout officially ended last week, and since then many have left to look for work elsewhere.
Mill workers like Dorian Trethart are sticking around for the time being. The workers officially began applying for their Employment Insurance benefits this week, something they were unable to do because of the lockout.

The union is working with the Community Unemployed Help Centre in Winnipeg to try and convince Ottawa to help the workers obtain retroactive EI benefits to Sept. 1 of last year, the day the lockout started.

If that happens, each worker could get up to $7,000.

Still, Trethart and fellow union member Jeff Dugard aren't holding their breath.

"EI is like an insurance company — they love to take the premiums, but they don't want to pay out," Trethart said. "Been there, done that."

Dugard agreed.
"Just because they're letting us apply is no guarantee they'll give us anything," he said.

In the mean time, Tembec has pushed its purchase deadline back to the end of March. It recently put the mill up for sale, and said if it didn't get purchased by the end of January, the mill would be mothballed.

Ed Gaffray, acting president of the Blue Water Chamber of Commerce, said that's encouraging. The chamber met with Bradette last week.

"It was more of an information meeting to let people know he was serious," Gaffray said.
"Pushing the deadline back does show there's a serious offer there, but time will tell.

Buying a mill isn't like buying a car — there's a lot involved, and it's even more complicated right now what with the economy and all."

The USW picket line headquarters across from the mill will come down in about a week, the union said.

Friday, December 25, 2009


CANADIAN LABOUR-MANITOBA:
TEMBEC LOCKOUT CONTINUES AS WORKERS REJECT OFFER:
The lockout of workers at the Tembec plant in Pine Falls Manitoba seems set to continue into the New Year as workers there have rejected an offer on the part of the company to change their status from "locked out" to "laid off" in return for concessions that would essentially give up all other rights that they are entitled to. Here is how the matter was reported by the Winnipeg Free Press.
◘•◘•◘•◘•◘•◘•◘•◘•◘•
Union rejects layoff offer at Tembec's newsprint mill in Manitoba:
By: THE CANADIAN PRESS
PINE FALLS, Man. - Hundreds of locked-out workers at a Tembec forestry mill in Pine Falls, Man., rejected Wednesday a company proposal to change the terms of their severance and employment security.

During a meeting Tuesday with two conciliators from the Manitoba Department of Labour, Tembec had proposed changing the lockout to a layoff, an idea the union supported because it would allow its members to collect Employment Insurance.

However, the union said Tembec's offer was conditional on workers agreeing to defer severance pay and give up their employment security rights unless the operations were running at 100 per cent capacity.

"It is clear Tembec has no interest in ending this dispute because it tabled proposals it surely must have known would be rejected outright by their employees, our members," said United Steelworkers union area supervisor Wayne Skrypnyk.

In all, 280 workers have been on the picket line since September in a dispute over wage cuts, and their union has now applied for provincial arbitration.

The union said the company had been seeking wage and contract concessions that exceed 35 per cent.

Tembec announced earlier this month that it was putting the plant up for sale and was prepared to end the lockout, subject to an agreement on some local issues.

Before it locked out the workers, Tembec said it needed immediate and significant cuts in labour costs at the mill to keep it competitive.

Demand for newsprint has dropped across North America because of the recession and changes in newspapers affected by the migration of news and advertising to the Internet.

Tembec is one of Canada's largest forestry companies, with operations in Quebec and other parts of the country, and in France.
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Meanwhile the United Steel Workers have issued a press release which goes into more detail as to why the workers rejected the offer. It also mentions that the rejection was unanimous. To my knowledge no mass media outlet has picked up on this press release. Here it is from the Canadian Newswire.
◘•◘•◘•◘•◘•◘•◘•◘•◘•◘•
Tembec Denies Pine Falls Workers Severance, EI and Workplace Rights:
WINNIPEG, Dec. 23 /CNW/ - Locked-out members of United Steelworkers (USW) Local 3 - 1375, at the Tembec Manitoba Newsprint operations in Powerview-Pine Falls, unanimously rejected a company proposal Tuesday to change the lockout to a layoff if workers agreed to defer severance pay and give up their employment security rights unless the operations were running at 100 per cent capacity.

USW negotiators and Tembec met Tuesday with two conciliators from the Manitoba Department of Labour to possibly end the lockout that began September 1, 2009. Two hundred and sixty USW members and 20 members of the Canadian Office and Professional Employees Union are on the picket line in rejection of wage and contract concessions that exceed 35 per cent.

"It is clear Tembec has no interest in ending this dispute because it tabled proposals it surely must have known would be rejected outright by their employees, our members," said USW area supervisor Wayne Skrypnyk.

The USW has applied to the provincial labour board for Interest Arbitration.

Despite imposing the lockout, earlier this month Tembec admitted to the Manitoba government and the unions that it intends to either sell the newsprint mill or close it down.

"If Tembec agreed to change its lockout to a layoff, our members would be able to collect Employment Insurance," said Skrypnyk. "This would have helped the workers and the community weather the economic storm that has hit the industry."

He added: "Tembec's denial of a workable agreement that would provide workers and their families access to Employment Insurance is heartless, especially at Christmas time."
The USW represents 250,000 workers in all sectors of the Canadian economy.
For further information: Wayne Skrypnyk, USW Area Coordinator, (204) 232-7335

Saturday, December 12, 2009


CANADIAN LABOUR-MANITOBA:
PINE FALLS- LATEST TEMBEC OFFER INSULTING:
A lot has been happening with the lockout at Tembec in pine falls Manitoba since Molly last blogger on the matter. I've sort of fallen behind on reporting on all the news since the company announced that the plant was up for sale. I hope to do a much fuller article later. For now, however, here's a report filed yesterday by the CBC about the latest hat trick that Tembec is attempting to foist on its locked out workers.
→→→→→→→→→→→
Mill workers angry over severance request:

Locked-out workers at the paper mill in Pine Falls, Man., are appalled by the latest concession being requested by the company, Tembec Inc.

The Montreal-based company has told the United Steelworkers union, which represents about 250 locked-out employees, that it will end the lockout if the workers wait for a period of 50 weeks before getting severance pay.

'There was some pretty colourful responses that I can't repeat on [the news]. I'd be bleeped out.'—Cam Sokoloski, United Steelworkers local president.

Cam Sokoloski, union local president, said the members haven't taken kindly to that news.
"There was some pretty colourful responses that I can't repeat on [the news]. I'd be bleeped out," he said. "Not one union member is saying this is a good thing."

Waiting that long for severance to be paid out would make it much less likely anyone would get any money at all because the industry is in turmoil and Tembec is trying to sell the Pine Falls mill, Sokoloski said.

If everyone is laid off, the severance could run as high as $10 million, he noted.

"They're basically just holding onto that money for a year and who knows if Tembec goes bankrupt or they do sell us to somebody else, well there will be no severance, right, because we'll all be back working."

The mill, about 130 kilometres northeast of Winnipeg, has been idle since Sept. 1. It is the biggest employer in the community.

Contract talks between the union and the company began Aug. 13, but the two sides were unable to reach a deal. Although they continued talking after the lockout, negotiations definitively halted in October.

On Tuesday, Tembec officials announced they have decided to sell the mill rather than reopen it. If a buyer isn't found, the mill could be closed for good.

Tembec is trying to end the labour dispute to clear the way for the sale, the company said.
→→→→→→→→→→→→
Molly Notes:
I think that both the union and the company are speaking the truth here. On the company's part, well yeah, " they are "trying to end the labour dispute to clear the way for the sale". It's pretty obvious that it would have to be a very ill informed private company that would be willing to make an offer under the present conditions. What is astonishing is that they have the arrogance to expect the workers to bite at this bait. Yes, if Tembec goes bankrupt in the intervening months or if they manage to find a buyer the deferred severance pay (to at least some extent required by law) becomes smoke. Nice trick if you can pull it off. To my mind the only way that anyone could bite at this would be if the severance pay were to be put now into a GIC type account in the name of the workers to whom it is owed, with any interest (small as it might be) accumulating to the fund rather than to the company. In the absence of this Tembec is left with millions of dollars to play with and gain profit and a liability that may end up being written off. But...more on the Tembec lockout in a future post.

Sunday, November 22, 2009


CANADIAN LABOUR-MANITOBA:
HELP MAKE CHRISTMAS IN PINE FALLS:
Since Sept 1 workers at the Tembec paper plant in Pine Falls, represented by Local 1- 1375 of the United Steelworkers and Local 1216 of the Canadian Office and professional Employees Union, have been locked out by their employer. Having no resources to fall back on many who can are already beginning to drift away from town in search of work. Still others will have to cancel Christmas for their families. People here in Manitoba are pulling together to help out, as the following column from Winnipeg Free Press reporter Lindor Reynolds shows. For those readers outside of Manitoba, the Goldeyes are our local baseball team. Also, the following article doesn't mention the mailing address of the Wings of Power Centre in Pine Falls where anyone from out of province who wishes to make a donation can mail a cheque. It is...
Wings of Power
39 Main St.
Pine Falls, MB
R0E 1Mo
Canada
or
Wings of Power
Box 66,
Pine Falls, MB
R0E 1M0
Canada.
Their website is http://www.wingsofpower.org and their facebook site is http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wings-of-Power/198769800444 . All donations are tax deductible (in Canada of course). Every Friday the Centre provides a free lunch for workers on the picket line. Here's the story from the Free Press.
WWWWWWWWWW
Christmas comes earlier and earlier each year.:
At Costco, it arrived in early October. There's something profoundly depressing about seeing an illuminated Santa weeks before the kids go trick and treating.

But we're only a few weeks away now so I thought I'd give you the gift of good news. Manitobans are knocking themselves out to help the needy, the less fortunate and the desperate.
"ö "ö "ö
We start in Pine Falls, where the locked-out Tembec workers are trying to find a way to pay their bills. Many have told their kids they shouldn't expect Christmas presents.

That didn't sit well with some of you.

I heard from Grant Tymchuk, owner of the Arby's locations in Winnipeg. He made an offer: For every new unwrapped toy dropped off at any Arby's, he'd provide the donor with a free combo meal.

Tymchuk went even further. He drove out to Pine Falls, met a number of folks on the picket line and came home impressed with their camaraderie.

Tymchuk called Monday to tell me the toys are coming in. He's also managed to get Mark's Work Warehouse to donate some warm winter clothing. The Goldeyes have also signed on with some goodies.
"ö "ö "ö
I got back from a short vacation Monday afternoon. My mail slot held cheques for the Tembec employees. I'm sure the Wings of Power family resource centre in Pine Falls received even more.

You know who you are. Thank you.
WWWWWWWWWW
MOLLY NOTE:
The Tembec workers cannot collect EI because they are locked out. Yeah, I know, I did a double take on that one as well. This despite the public promo on government sites that EI provides benefits for those who are umemployed "through no fault of their own". I think a lockout qualifies as very much such a situation. In any case I hope to be back to this EI issue in some future post.

Friday, October 09, 2009


CANADIAN LABOUR-MANITOBA:
TEMBEC WORKERS STAND FIRM:
Regular readers of this blog know that I hate to be a carping, negative, nit picking bitch (more or less), but I'm going to be a carping, negative, nitpicking bitch here and now. The lockout on the part of the Tembec Corporation in the Manitoba town of Pine Falls has been going on for about a month now. Finally, their union, the United Steel Workers, has deigned to publish an article on their website about this ongoing struggle. Not that you are going to have an easy time finding it. It's hardly front page news there. Go to the site, and then go to the 'Western Canadian Section' to find the following. Now, I know that Manitoba is hardly the centre of the universe. I also know that the USW are rather embattled now, fighting strikes and lockouts on many fronts, especially in Ontario. I also know, however, that the struggle of the people of Pine Falls has a lot to say to a great many other communities in Canada, and perhaps across the world. Molly has expressed her own opinion about 'what should be done' earlier on this blog, and I urge the reader to search it down. For now I am happy that the USW has finally expanded on this struggle that is important to at least the people of this province.
CLCLCLCLCLCLCL

Pine Falls Paperworkers Determined to Win Scrap Against Tembec:
POWERVIEW-PINE FALLS, MB – After more than a month of being thrown onto picket lines by their employer, locked-out United Steelworkers Local 3-1375 members at Tembec Inc.’s Pine Falls Division here remain steadfast in their determination to prevail in their first-ever labour dispute at the mill.
Local 1-1375 president Cam Sokoloski (click for image) says 250 USW members are “rock solid” in their efforts to beat back the company’s demands for drastic concessions, which exceed 35 per cent of wages and benefits for most employees.
Tembec locked out the USW members, along with 15 members of the Canadian Office and Professional Employees Local 216, on September 1.
“This is the first labour dispute that workers have ever faced at this mill site since operations began in 1929,” says Sokoloski. “We have always been able to negotiate agreements in good times and bad – some negotiations were tougher than others.”
But this year, after only 3-1/2 days of contract talks with Tembec, the company put an ultimatum to its employees: Take major concessions or the plant would be mothballed.
Tembec management is taking the current downturn in the economy to drive concessions from its workers. We say that is unjust and unfair,” comments the local union president. “Their executives get big bonuses and they want us to take rollbacks.”
Both the USW and COPE (click to see picket supporters with MGEU supporters) have offered to meet directly with Tembec anytime, any place to negotiate an agreement.
Manitoba Labour Minister Nancy Allen has appointed a mediator who has already met with both sides in an attempt to solve the dispute. Allen has asked for non-binding recommendations from the mediator by October 16. The first meeting with the mediator took place on September 24, three weeks into the lock out.
USW Area Supervisor Wayne Skrypynk says the union hopes that mediator Michael Weirer “will be able to help get negotiations back on track.”“We certainly hope Mr. Weirer’s work will get us back to the table as the Steelworkers union is ready and willing to negotiate,” says Skrypnyk.

“At the bargaining table Tembec would not tell us the dollars per tonne costs reductions that their demands will save,” says Skrypnyk. “They just expected everyone to roll over and take concessions. We said no.”
Sokoloski says the union has provided the mediator with records of negotiations this year and in past years.
“When the mediator reviews this information he will see that Tembec did not try to reach a collective agreement – that it was a rush to a lock out,” says Sokoloski. “Tembec did not want to negotiate, it wanted immediate concessions.”
That ultimatum-style of bargaining – where Tembec is treating its labour force as part of the problem, rather than part of the solution – has made workers more “pissed off” and determined to stay strong until a collective agreement is reached, says Sokoloski.
The union is digging in for a potentially lengthy dispute. It has set up three major picket gates (click for image) and is patrolling the mill site.
Tembec has hired a security firm to spy on the picketers, videotape them and audio tape them with parabolic microphones.
“Our guys are staying cool and are not reacting to provocations by Tembec,” says Sokoloski. “Our whole bargaining committee and union are proud of the job our members are doing on the picket line.”
Tembec tried to provoke the picketers by moving out rolls of newsprint from the shipping area. Two trucks owned by Bison Transport (click for image) had their semis leave with loads, with RCMP officers posted nearby.
Bison Transport has not been back since.
Now Tembec is contracting Paramount Transport, also a Manitoba-based firm, to do the same thing.
Paramount’s website says it strives to treat each of its employees “with the utmost respect and fairness.”
“It’s not fair for Paramount (click for image) to assign any driver to cross our picket line,” says Skyrpnyk. “That shows it has little respect for its drivers or our dispute with Tembec.”
“We say that the newsprint should stay exactly where it is until this thing is over,” says Sokoloski. “We want Paramount out of Pine Falls and are circulating information that they are crossing our picket line.”
The picket line has been visited by numerous friends, family members and citizens of Powerview-Pine Falls and outlying areas.
“Some fellow, who we don’t know is, dropped $100 off at the picket line – another made a donation of 10 dozen donuts, says Sokoloski.
Grass roots generosity has been greatly appreciated by both USW and COPE members.
This past Sunday the unions put on an afternoon of celebration outside the main plant gates to say thanks for all the community support.
In addition to support from other workers – retirees, family and other community members, including business owners – the locked-out union members are receiving political support from all parties: the NDP, the Conservatives and the Liberals.
Everyone knows that the future of a prosperous Powerview-Pine Falls revolves on settlement of the lockout.
Even non-labour ally Conservatives have slammed Tembec.
Conservative leader Hugh McFadyen told the media: “Tembec’s delivered a brutal ultimatum and hasn’t shown much willingness to bargain. These kinds of tactics are just ruthless.”
Says Skrypnyk: “Tembec does not have many friends left in Manitoba. They should get this message loud and clear. It does not bode well for their business in our communities.”
“Our union told Tembec it is willing to work with it to find as many areas as we can to be more efficient, but we will not let them gut the collective agreement that has taken the union decades to build,” adds Skyrpnyk.
The mill produces newsprint by thermo-mechanical means, which has in recent months been put at a greater economic disadvantage by federal government subsidies to pulp producers aimed at offsetting the advantage US mills get under the so-called “black liquor subsidy program.”
Pine Falls and other mills that use thermo-mechanical pulping processes don’t qualify.
The Steelworkers have offered to help Tembec get some sort of assistance under the federal program and federal Conservative Cabinet Minister Vic Toews has told the union that there is already potential assistance for the Central Manitoba Railway (CEMR) greenway which serves Powerview-Pine Falls’ industrial base, including the locked out operation.
“Minister Toews has posed the question to Tembec,” says Sokoloski. “Why should the federal government help the CEMR if Tembec does not want to run the mill?”
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MOLLY NOTE
Good luck to the people in Pine Falls, but I have to note that while it may be 'encouraging' to pick out supportive statements from politicians that such statements are hardly to be relied upon. the same goes for the efforts of the mediator, no matter how strong the case of the workers is. If people want to win they have to exert more pressure on their own, and not depend on any political intermediary.

Saturday, September 19, 2009


CANADIAN LABOUR-MANITOBA:
PINE FALLS RALLIES BEHIND LOCKED OUT TEMBEC WORKERS:
The lockout at the Tembec plant in Pine Falls continues, but yesterday the residents of the town held a rally to show their support for the people affected. Here's a brief item from the Winnipeg Free Press about the rally.
Residents rally for locked-out workers:
The townspeople of Pine Falls showed up in full force on Friday to show solidarity for locked-out Tembec employees.

Organizers of a march in the one-industry town estimated 350 people came out to support the 230 pulp and paper workers.

"We had people in golf carts and wheelchairs, people from all walks of life. Everybody jumped on board when we put out the notices and went out for a walk," said Vicki Reid.

"If Tembec goes down, the town goes down."

The lockout came after workers overwhelmingly rejected a company proposal that union officials said called for wage and benefit concessions totalling 35 per cent.
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While the provincial Labour Minister has indeed appointed Winnipeg lawyer Michael Werier as a mediator the company's previous statements give no assurance that they intend to bargain seriously with the workers involved. The following article from the CBC gives a bit more detail about yesterday's solidarity rally. Generally speaking it is obvious that the vast majority of town residents have shown their support for the workers involved. No surprise there. Is this sufficient ? Of course not. The next rally should obviously take place in Winnipeg, in front of the Legislature. There should also be further effort in terms of a online campaign to pressure Tembec management to bargain in good faith.




Tembec, interestingly enough, was originally formed in 1973 via a sweetheart bailout deal of a mill in Témiscaming, Québec. It is presently headquartered in Montréal, and operates in France, Chile and the USA in addition to Canada. Despite much brouhaha about 'corporate responsibility' Tembec has shown little consideration for its workers over the years. See the Tembec Worker site for the story of one of it past actions in BC. I guess that it just goes to show that corporations that line up for government handouts will, in the end, behave just like any other corporation. Anyways, here's the story from the CBC.
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Residents walk with locked-out mill workers:
  Residents of the town of Pine Falls, Man., walked in solidarity Friday with 270 locked-out workers from the local paper mill, where the union says Tembec Inc. is pushing for a 35 per cent cut in wages and benefits.

Pine Falls is about 130 kilometres northeast of Winnipeg.

The town put out a call to its citizens to support the workers, and the call was answered by hundreds of people, including elderly people in wheelchairs and a father pulling his young son in a wagon.

Clusters of people walked the 2.5-kilometre stretch of Main Street shoulder-to-shoulder with workers who have been on the picket line since Aug. 31.

Residents told CBC News the lockout doesn't just affect the employees. Several shop owners said their business is hurting and membership has dropped in local recreation programs.

Residents hope their show of solidarity will help end the lockout with the Montreal-based company and get the economy flowing once again.

On Thursday, the province appointed a mediator in an attempt to reach an agreement between the workers and management.

Manitoba Labour Minister Nancy Allan said Thursday that Michael Werier, a Winnipeg lawyer with experience in negotiation and arbitration, has been hired to try to resolve the nearly three-week-long lockout.

Werier has been asked to report on the progress of negotiations and settlement recommendations by Oct. 16.

Contract talks between the union and the company began Aug. 13, but the two sides have been unable to reach a collective agreement.

The company said Sept. 1 it needed an "immediate and significant reduction" in labour costs at the paper mill to keep it competitive in a radically changed market for newsprint.
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Tembec, however, is not the only forestry company that is either closing its doors or putting the squeeze on its workers, as the following item from the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada shows in terms of Abitibi Bowaters. Molly agrees with the urgency of the following call, but she disagrees with the proposed "solution" put forward by the CEP Union. As I have said before on this blog, the real long term solution is an expanded system of "community forests" and the cooperative processing plants that would go along with them. If government money is to be applied anywhere it should be to such a system rather than to private corporations. As noted above Tembec was the happy recipient of government largess at its founding, and the public value from that bailout has now been seen to be less than what might have been hoped for. As to Abitibi Bowater, well giving money to a local street gang would be a more rational move.
Given at least the medium term outlook for the Canadian lumber industry a community forest system that would perhaps be more geared to domestic consumption rather than export would indeed involve a certain amount of job loss amongst forestry workers. So, however, will the "accepted wisdom" of throwing more money at the forestry companies- assuming the USA allows such a thing under the Free Trade Agreement (an unlikely proposition). What the community/producer coop model of community forests would encourage, however, is a greater involvement of local workers and community members, an involvement that is far more likely to produce the magic "diversification" that conversation about this subject seems to eventually come down to. The CEP, like too much of Canadian labour, is mired in and tied to traditional solutions that have been shown over and over to be insufficient. It's time for a little imagination.
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MILL CLOSURES A DISASTER-CEP UNION:
OTTAWA -- AbitibiBowater’s closure announcements today at six Canadian mills “are disasters of historical proportions for communities that have been a mainstay of the Canadian forest industry,” said Dave Coles, president of the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada.
The indefinite closures at three Canadian mills and paper machine closures at four other mills affect more than 1,500 CEP members in 11 CEP local unions.
Coles said that union members today are “angry with the company and cynical about their governments.”
“These closures were preventable,” he said. “The Canadian government had only to put in place a program of loan guarantees for forest companies forced into CCAA protection because of the credit crisis. But clearly, when it comes to our forest industry, nothing is too large to fail, and no economic disaster is too large for government to ignore.”
“The governments that have done nothing to prevent this, and that will do nothing today but offer meaningless platitudes about markets, have lost their moral right to govern,” said Coles.
The closures are also the “end game of AbitibiBowater’s corporate machinations and an attempt to build an empire based on debt,” said Coles. “This company exploited the forests to buy up productive companies, but failed to reinvest. Now workers and communities are paying the price.” (So do you throw more money at somebody who has already sharked you ?-Molly )
Coles said that the company will also use CCAA provisions to deny workers tens of thousands of dollars per person in severance pay that is owed and relegate them to the back of a line of creditors. “This is an ultimate humiliation and painful blow inflicted on our members because the Conservative government believes that bankers are more deserving than working Canadians.”(Uhh-Abitibi Bowater is not "bankrupt in total", merely certain mills. This says buckets about the laxity of the bankruptcy laws in this country- Molly )
“If this government has any decency it will follow the lead of Premier Williams in Newfoundland and pay the severance owing to these workers,” he said. (I'd also say apply the bill against corporate assets- Molly )
The union is demanding that federal-provincial task forces be established with union participation in each of the communities affected by the closures to ensure that the productive capacity of the closed mills is not destroyed and to look for new, responsible ownership. (Have I said the phrase "community forests" before on this blog- Molly )
“If given half a chance, Canadians will overcome the shock, anger and cynicism left behind by the AbitibiBowater announcements and struggle to rebuild the forest industry,” said Coles. “There is no alternative for Canada’s forest communities than the sustainable development and value added processing of our primary renewable natural resource.”

Tuesday, September 15, 2009


CANADIAN LABOUR-MANITOBA:
PINE FALLS LOCKOUT CONTINUES:
The lockout of about 300 employees on the part of Tembec in Pine Falls Manitoba has been going on since August 31 (see previous item on this blog). The demands of the company for wage and benefit concessions amounting to nearly 35% are, of course, outrageous, and since the dispute began management has basically been stonewalling and refusing any efforts on the part of the union to negotiate. The following item from the Winnipeg Free Press tells more about the present situation of the locked out workers and their community. It also gives news of other layoffs that are affecting the area.
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LAYOFFS, LOCKOUT BLOW TO EASTMAN REGION:
The loss of 42 more mining jobs near Lac du Bonnet is another body blow to a region already staggering from a two-week-old paper-plant lockout at Powerview-Pine Falls.

The latest round of cutbacks at the Tantalum Mining Corporation of Canada mine at Bernic Lake compounds the damage done when 38 other Tantalum Mine employees were laid off in April.

"It (the loss of 80 Tantalum jobs) is a huge blow," Harold Taylor, general manager of Eastman Regional Development Inc., said in an interview Monday, noting the mine is one of the area's biggest employers.

"The one hit, they can absorb, I would imagine. But a second one? No," he said. "That area doesn't have a lot of industrial jobs anyway, so to lose that diversity leaves the local economy weaker."

The layoffs, the latest of which took effect on Sept. 4, were ordered after adverse market conditions prompted Tanco to suspend the mining and production of both tantalum and spodumene concentrate at the Bernic Lake mine. The cutbacks leave only six underground workers at the mine, which is now producing only cesium.

Taylor said that part of the Eastman region was already hurting economically from the two-week old labour dispute at the Tembec paper-mill plant in nearby Powerview-Pine Falls.

Tembec, which is that town's largest employer, locked out nearly 300 unionized workers on Aug. 31 after they overwhelmingly rejected a proposal that union officials said called for wage and benefit concessions totalling about 35 per cent. There have been no contract talks held since then, and a spokesman for the workers' union -- local 303175 of the United Steelworkers -- said the union will likely decide today whether to ask Labour Minister Nancy Allan to appoint a mediator to try and break the stalemate.

John Valley, Tembec's executive vice-president of business development and corporate affairs, refused to comment Monday on whether the company would agree to the appointment of a mediator. He also declined to comment on the details of the company's demands, other than to say it needs to achieve immediate and significant reductions in its labour costs to improve the competitive position of the Powerview-Pine Falls plant. (It seems management is unlikely to say anything other than repeat its demands-Molly )

Meanwhile, the owners of two Powerview-Pine Falls businesses said Monday the Tembec lockout is taking a toll on many area businesses, including their own.

Ed Papineau, who co-owns Papineau Motors along with his brother, Ron, said their revenues are down about 20 per cent because of locked-out workers cancelling orders for things like new tires or non-essential repairs to their vehicles.

And Papineau fears it will get a lot worse if the dispute drags on for a long time -- a fear that is shared by Tonya Kemball, owner of the local Chicken Chef restaurant.

Although Kemball couldn't put a number on it, she said her restaurant has seen a significant decline in business volumes since the dispute began.

"Last week and this past weekend we really noticed it. It's just a scary situation all around."
Powerview-Pine Falls Mayor Ted Pichor said the impact on local businesses has been offset to some degree by the recent bout of warm weather, which has kept cottage owners coming to town to buy groceries and other supplies.

"But if it (the labour dispute) lasts a long time... it would definitely have an impact (on the town's economy)," the mayor said.

Kemball, whose husband, Daniel, works at the Tembec plant, said she remains hopeful the dispute won't drag on for too long. Taylor is also optimistic it will get resolved and the Tembec mill will also survive the current newsprint-industry crisis, which has seen the North American demand for newsprint plunge by 50 per cent since 2003.

But even if it does, Taylor said the latest woes at Tembec and Tantalum should serve as a wake-up call for local municipalities. He said they need to be a lot more proactive in trying to lure new industries to the area, which still hasn't recovered from the closure 11 years ago of the Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. research facility in Pinawa.

"That created a huge hole, and that's still the case," he said.

A spokesperson for Tantalum's parent company, Boston-based Cabot Corporation, could not be reached Monday for comment. ( I guess he drinks in the same bar as Tembec management-Molly )
murray.mcneill@freepress.mb.ca
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MOLLY NOTES:
This is your classic David and Goliath story. The workers involved are few in number, reside in an isolated rural community and are facing an international corporation with far more resources to play a waiting game than they have. Their union, the United Steelworkers surely has more than enough on its plate right now with major disputes in Ontario and Newfoundland, and they can hardly be faulted for not going "over the top" in support for these workers. The Tembec workers are also over a barrel in others ways. While small the area is an actual community where people have put down roots. It's not a "lumber camp", and the people involved have been raising families in the town and have a significant amount to lose, perhaps enough that they may eventually see no other way than to cave in to the company's greedy demands.
There is, however, an alternative. It would be up to the members of local 303175 to initiate it themselves as the union leadership is preoccupied by other matters. Very few people outside of their local area are fully aware of the situation, and solidarity rallies in nearby cities (Winnipeg and North West Ontario) would do a lot to bring the public over to their side, especially as such rallies would see the support of many community members who are not members of the local. It would do wonders to convince the provincial government to actually pressure Tembec to come to the bargaining table.
Beyond that, however, there is the larger question of the situation of these almost one-industry towns. The latter paragraphs of the above article illustrate the problem very well, and it is a problem that many small industrial communities are facing nationwide. It is important that an area's economy be diverse enough to withstand either the misfortunes or the simple greed of one corporate employer. The situation is not as dire as it may seem for towns whose basic industry is forestry. Throughout the world there is a movement for 'Community Forests', forests that are owned and managed by community co-ops. These outfits have the interests of local residents more in mind than some industrial dinosaur, and they draw on a pool of local talent, initiative, ideas, community spirit and creativity of the sort that makes schools of business look like kindergartens. They furthermore create an economy whereby the revenue generated stays in the community, and the plans for development are much more integrated with the communities needs-including the issue of sustainability.
These are not some pipe dream. There may be hundreds of these co-ops worldwide, and there are many Canadian examples as well-The Revelstoke Community Forest Co-op, The Whistler-Squamish-Lil'wat Community Forest, The Harrop-Proctor Community Forest, the Acadian Forest Families, to mention just a few. When the present situation at Tembec is resolved, one way or the other, citizens and workers should begin to look at alternatives to the corporate control that places them is such a position of helpless jeopardy. Community Forests are the alternative to corporate lumber giants.

Tuesday, September 01, 2009


CANADIAN LABOUR- MANITOBA:
TEMBEC WORKERS LOCKED OUT IN PINE FALLS:
As of last midnight almost 300 workers at the Powerview Pine Falls newsprint plant have been locked out by management of the Tembec company. Management has been demanding concessions that amount to a 35 percent cut in wages and benefits. This is, to say the least an astounding demand. Perhaps the rolls pictured in the photo above are actually what they look like- toilet paper for the management washrooms. After all, if you are in competition for the "Biggest A.... Award" you need the equipment to maintain your winning bid. Here's the bare bones of the story from our local paper, the Winnipeg Free Press.

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TEMBEC LOCKS OUT 300 WORKERS:
Tembec workers have been laid off four times this year for a total of 12 weeks.

(KEN GIGLIOTTI / WINNIPEG FREE PRESS ARCHIVES)
Close to 300 workers at Tembec's Powerview-Pine Falls newsprint plant were to be locked out at midnight Monday night only one week after being called back to work after an extensive shut down.





Union officials said the troubled forestry product company gave workers an "ultimatum" to accept a new contract that included wage and benefits concessions totalling 35 per cent.





"We're prepared to do our part to cut costs," said Wayne Skrypnyk, United Steelworkers area supervisor. "But when we asked to see the breakdown of the cost containment measures being made throughout the operation, we were told we had to agree to the concession before they will talk about other cost containment activities."





In addition to the 260 USW workers close to 20 office workers will also be affected by the lock out.





Skrypnyk said his members were not prepared to shoulder all the cost cutting when, he said, company executives received substantial increased in their bonuses over the past couple of years.





He said the union's legal advisers are investigating whether or not a claim can be made with the provincial labour board regarding bad faith bargaining.





Workers had already been out on an extended shut down and were called back to work only one week ago which was one week ahead of schedule.





Now Skrypnyk believes company officials were planning on a lock out all along and needed the workers back to allow for an orderly shut down.





Pine Falls workers have been laid off four times this year for a total of 12 weeks. The longest plant shutdown was for six weeks in June and July. The other three -- one over the Christmas-New Year period, another in February, and the most recent one that began Aug. 11 -- were for two weeks each.





The USW collective agreement ended Monday. Talks to renew the contract only began in mid-August and according to Skrypnyk consisted of the company demanding concessions with no room for the union to negotiate.





John Valley, Tembec's executive vice-president, business development and corporate affairs, would not comment on the lock out or the collective bargaining agreement situation.





But he did say that the industry in a critical state.





"We have seen a profound structural decline in demand for newsprint," Valley said. "The newsprint industry is in the most challenging period it has ever faced."





Valley said low newsprint prices and higher Canadian dollar has negatively affected the market, but "the principal and critical issue is the dramatic over-supply of newsprint."





He said newsprint sites will have to close and those that survive must be cost competitive.
Tembec's Manitoba newsprint operations is the largest employer by far in the town of Powerview-Pine Falls, located about 130 kilometres northeast of Winnipeg.





The newsprint plant has had a rocky recent history with a couple of changes of ownership and more than $100 million in capital investments at the beginning of the decade.





But industry officials say that new Canadian subsidies for pulp plants and a new loop hole that has allowed the newsprint industry in the U.S. to receive tax credits is making it even harder for Canadian newsprint plants to survive.
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Workers at Tembec's Pine Falls facility are represented by the United Steels Workers Canada (USW). Lord knows the USW has quite a lot on its plate these days, what with the strike(s) against Vale Inco. In any case here is the union position from the USW website, written before the recent lockout.

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Tembec to Lock Out Workers on September 1 at Manitoba Newsprint Operations in Pine Falls:
WINNIPEG, MB, 28 Aug 2009 – In an all-out effort to take away some 35 per cent in wage and benefit concessions from United Steelworkers and Canadian Office and Professional Employee Union members, Tembec Inc. negotiators have informed the unions that it will lock out its Manitoba Newsprint Operations in Pine Falls on September 1, 2009.





Over 250 USW Local 3-1375 members are employed in the operations.





“The company is holding true to an ultimatum style of collective bargaining,” says USW area supervisor Wayne Skrypnyk. “It threatened a shutdown on September 1 if it didn’t get its way and now it is proceeding.”





Union negotiators were presented further details on concession demands this morning.





At the same time the company refuses to share information on any other efforts it may be taking with other stakeholders to reduce costs for the operations.





“There’s much the company could do, with other stakeholders, in terms of achieving savings on fibre and silviculture costs, woodlands costs, energy and transportation efficiencies, and taxes but it categorically refuses to share those options with us,” says union staff representative Scott McRitchie.





Skrypnyk says the union is willing to continue to bargain and encourages the company to reconsider its lock out position.





“Our members and the people of Powerview-Pine Falls have already suffered enough through the current economic downturn,” says Skrypnyk. “A lockout on September 1, after contract talks just begun on August 13, does not send a positive signal to workers or the community.




Tembec has to act responsibly.”





The Steelworkers are Canada’s largest industrial union with 250,000 members in all sectors of the economy.
Contact:
Wayne Skrypnyk 204.940.3050 / 204.232.7335 /
Scott McRitchie 204.940.3050 /
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See also this item, also from the USW website.

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27 AUGUST 2009
Tembec Refuses to Work with Unions to Save Mill Jobs in Pine Falls:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
POWERVIEW PINE FALLS, MB – Representatives of the United Steelworkers and the Canadian Office and Professional Employees Union say Tembec Inc. is refusing to share information on its cost reduction demands or share any records of its efforts with other stakeholders to reduce production costs at the company’s Manitoba Newspaper Operations here.





The operations, which employ over 250 USW Local 3-1375 union members, is currently covered by a collective agreement that expires on August 31, 2009.





“Our unions are prepared to continue to bargain to find a viable agreement that helps all parties concerned but Tembec isn’t cooperative,” says USW area supervisor Wayne Skrypnyk.
COPE Local 216 staff rep Don Talarico says it’s “extremely frustrating when employer representatives refuse to provide adequate information that would allow us to make informed decisions.”





Instead of working with the unions, company negotiators have set an ultimatum that workers must accept wage and contract concessions, estimated by the unions to be well over 35 per cent, by August 31. If concessions are not agreed to, Tembec management says the plant will not operate on September 1.





Tembec is trying to gut our collective agreement and, at the same time, does not want to share how many dollars savings, per tonne, its concessionary demands would amount to,” says USW Western Canada Director Stephen Hunt. “This company should also be willing let its employees know what it is willing to do in production and market innovation and in cooperation with the Manitoba and federal governments, to improve sales and reduce overall costs for Pine Falls.”





The mill produces newsprint by thermo-mechanical means, which has in recent months been put at a greater economic disadvantage by federal government subsidies to pulp producers aimed at offsetting the advantage US mills get under the so-called “black liquor subsidy program,” Unfortunately, Pine Falls and other mills that use thermo-mechanical pulping processes don’t qualify.





“The Steelworkers are certainly willing to help Tembec get some sort of assistance under the Canadian program,” said Hunt.





Collective Bargaining commenced on August 13 and continued this week.





The Steelworkers are Canada’s largest industrial union with 280,000 members in all sectors of the economy.
Contact:
Stephen Hunt 604.683.1117; /604.816.2554
Wayne Skrypnyk 204.677.1710; /204.232.7335
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MOLLY NOTES:
It is, of course, presumptuous for anyone not totally acquainted with local conditions to make recommendations, but some "advise" can be given here even in the absence of such knowledge. The first and most obvious recommendation is that the workers victimized by this lockout should make extreme efforts to sign up both local citizens of their community and the wider Manitoba/North West Ontario community to gather as much support as they can. Even if the workers believe that there will be some "political savior" who will come along to intervene they must understand that such political intervention can only be generated by a wider outreach than a simple worker versus company dispute.




The second thing that people should realize is that there are other examples of how workers have responded to such company intimidation that have been much more effective than traditional Canadian trade union tactics. In many countries workers have responded by both occupying their workplaces and by resuming production without management, marketing the product via their own networks. many such examples have been described before on this blog. I know that this sort of thing is a very unlikely prospect in the newsprint industry. If for no other reason than that the total demand from both the provinces of Manitoba and Ontario (let alone the "effective demand" of those customers who would indeed support such marketing) is far less than the present plant's production. OK, that idea is out, but I will suggest that a workplace occupation would, like hanging, do wonders to concentrate management's mind. I would further suggest that, when the inevitable injunction happens and people have to exit the plant, that there is nothing in the language of any injunction that prevents secondary, tertiary, quaternary,etc.,etc., etc. occupations by non-union members by members of the that portion of the wider community that the workers have drawn into support. An injunction, after all, has to be aimed at a specific group to have any legal meaning. All this, of course, assumes that the workers involved in this lockout are willing to "go the extra mile" rather than depend upon either union officials or politicians. If you don't do it yourself it won't be done.